Syria's Creative Syria heights

Hind Kabawat | Proud Syrian
Syria

June 1st, 2007
Find Original Article at:
http://creativesyria.com/syrianbloggers/?cat=3

To my dear Israeli friend:

Back in February 2002, in Tigne, France, we ended up in the same group together taking ski lessons. That was when our friendship began. We had all been introduced by our first names, and then off we went with our instructor and five others to ski in the beautiful Alps.

We hit it off from the first moment. We laughed, we failed, we encouraged each other, and finally we sat in a little restaurant somewhere overlooking the lovely Alps and drank hot chocolate, having our lunch. We started chatting and you introduced yourself: “I am Keren from Israel.” I replied, “I am Hind from Syria.” We looked each other curiously as this was the first time I had met an Israeli, and it was also your first time meeting a Syrian. But we were surprised and happy to find that we have nearly the same accent when we speak a foreign language, we have the same color eyes. We were almost cousins, yes, we were enemies back home, but definitely it was too late now we had already become friends.

I remember that we sat together and discussed politics every evening après ski, and we discussed together a peace plan. We were both suffering and in pain from the wars in our region, we were from the same generation, we vaguely remember the 1967 war, but we do remember the tragedy and suffering our people have to go through in the time of war. We remembered as adolescents the 1973 war, and the conflicts.

Then we got to talking about a plan for peace between our two countries, and how you could come and visit me in Damascus and we would go together and ski in the Golan, and I go to visit you with my family to see the holy sites of Jerusalem. We talked about real peace, with economic exchange, tourism and trade. We both want recognition, we both want stability and we both want security.

Days, month passed, we kept in touch, we wrote each other regularly, we both got hurt when Israel started building “The Wall”, we both felt pain when civilians on both sides were dying, we both felt pain during the Lebanese war, the missiles killing Israelis and Israel’s destruction of the infrastructure of Lebanon, not to mention cluster bombs. But your father’s letter to me at the end of last summer was so beautiful - full of hope to all our people, both Arabs and Israelis. He made me cry.

Well, my friend, the fortieth anniversary of the 1967 War is coming, almost our age, and we do need lastly to listen to our hearts and put pressure on our governments to bring to an end to war once and for all. We need to mount efforts together to make peace happen: security, recognition and stability for you, and the full Golan returned to Syria.

And in a beautiful ski lodge in the Golan Heights, après ski we can have the hot chocolate, or perhaps homos in beautiful old Damascus and in gorgeous old Jerusalem.

My love to you and to your family.

61 Responses to the Article

Mounir A. F. AbdelNour Says:
June 2nd, 2007 at 10:42 am

Those lines from Hind Kabawat express honestly and sincerely the feelings of a whole generation of proud arabs who would have spent their entire life dreaming of a just peace. A generation who has carried all along an olive branch and has received in response bullets and gun fire..A generation deceived but who apparently did not lose hope.
Just peace will come about if there were more than one Hind Kabawat on both sides.
Mounir AbdelNour

sitelkoul Says:
June 3rd, 2007 at 3:18 am

Finally, we are starting to realize that a peace can happen thru talks. We tried all other versions, did not work. This is the beginning of a new, peacufull era. I am for it.

Thank you Hind for making this page. I know it took more than we think to put the idea into action.

Hopefully, all in favor should participate to supprot your idea.

Another proud person from the region:Lebanon.

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 3rd, 2007 at 7:15 am

Thank you Mounir and Sitelkoul, for your kind words, a real peace should happen, it is an emergency calls for all sides.
Ignoring the other sides would lead us to more wars and destruction.

Mr. Israeli Says:
June 3rd, 2007 at 10:50 am

Dear Hind,

Your writing is indeed moving. Although I was only 4 years old in the 1973 war, I do remember the sirens, and I do remember not seeing my father for some 6 months during which he was stationed in the Sinai. But what I remember even more vividly, is my reaction, and that of people all around me, when I was 8 years old in 1977, during Sadat’s surprise visit to Jerusalem. All of us were crying. All of us realized what was happening, and could not hold back our emotions.

As I wrote in some of my other responses in this Blog, I’m convinced the same would happen again if Bashar came to speak before our Knesset, or Ehud before yours. That’s all it would take, and I can almost guarantee an instant change in the prevailing atmosphere of fear and distrust. Unfortunately, even our “democratic” system is not strong enough to pressure our leaders into discussions with Syria. Like in many European nations (and very much UNLIKE in the U.S.), the people here tend to trust government too much, and it is quite rare to see truly massive demonstrations anywhere. Few rare exceptions include during Menachem Begin’s rule in 1982 (demonstrating against our presence in Lebanon), and follwoing Rabin’s assassination in 1995 (showing support for his way).

It is therefore up to the two leaders themselves, not their constituents, not their parties, not their ministers, not their advisors. It is up to them directly, to stand up and take the chance. Like Bill Clinton recently remarked: “… peace between Israel and Syria is only 90 minutes away…” I happen to strongly believe in it. It is not only every Israeli’s dream to eat Kubbeh in Damscus, but to one day feel safe and complete, and human again. We all need it, for our sake, and for our children’s sake. In’shalla, we’ll all live to see the dream become a reality.

Alex Says:
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:05 pm

Dear Mr. Israeli

I used to live in Egypt when Sadat visited Israel. I was 12. I actually got to see prime minister Begin, president Carter, and president Sadat.

First, I will tell you about something that Shimon Peres said during his interview on a PBS documentary that I found very funny. Apparently when Sadat’s plane was landing and when it reached the area near the lineup of Israeli leaders waiting to greet Sadat, suddenly one of the leaders had a scary thought … what if this whole thing is a trick? what if when the door of the plane will open and instead of the smiling Sadat, they were going to be all machine gunned by a few Egyptian soldiers?

That’s why they were all looking very worried for a minute .. until Sadat emerged, no surprises.

Now back to your confidence that a visit by Bashar to Jerusalem would have the same effect that Sadat’s visit had. I agree to some extent. But unfortunately that won’t happen … not yet. Sadat was promised in advance that he will be eventually getting the full Sinai … Assad got no such promises yet. Also, Sadat was treated with much more respect at the time… he was artificially portrayed like one of the most brilliant, courageous, and wise world leaders… Assad in comparison, was subjected to the opposite type of PR campaign … when a Syrian opposition leader is sentenced to 5 years in jail, president Bush and President Chirac both make sure to talk about it to the press to make the Syrians look like thugs.

If Assad is to ever visit Jerusalem (which is unlikely) there are ways to prepare for such a visit in advance. We are seeing the inverse process from Washington and Tel Aviv.

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:53 pm

I agree with Alex, the visit to Jerusalem is unlikely under all the International pressure on Syria.
Our life as Peace builders and human rights activists in Middle East are very hard. when Israel and U.S Government not the people), are not being a good example in respecting the human rights law and violating the human rights in living and let others live. Killing the Civilian in Palestine, the Clusters Bombs in Lebanon, and the War in Iraq, are all an examples of violating Peace and human rights.
Believe me, we are all opposing any killing for any civilian in Israel or in the U.S, we condemn the suicides bombs, or any suicide attacks. We all need to put pressure in all our Governments in Middle East to stop the killing. Stop the killing of each others is the right road to start our peace.
I am asking all parties to stop the killing and think of a bright future for our children in peaceful Middle East.
 

Diala Says:
June 4th, 2007 at 3:00 am

قرأت مقالتك الجميلة يا سيدة هند لكن قبل كل هذه التمنيات والعواطف الجياشة والأحلام الوردية أتمنى عليكي أن تعلمي حقيقة واحدة هذه ليست أرضهم وهذا ليس بلدهم كي يحلمو بالسلام فيه، هل نسيتي تاريخ بلادنا عفواً تاريخ الأرض إن صح التعبير فهذه لم تكن أرضهم على الإطلاق ليحلمو بالسلام فيها، فعذرا منك يا سيدتي قبل أمانيكي وأمانيها أتمنى عليكي أن تدركي هذه الحقيقة فاذا تم اغتصابنا على مدى سنوات طويلة فليس من الممكن ان يصبح هذا المفتصب فرد من عائلتنا.

Yazan Says:
June 4th, 2007 at 4:08 am

Diala,
I do agree in every sense of the word, that the creation of Israel is one of the most immoral misconducts of foreign policy, and one of the most painful remnants of colonialism.
BUT, Israel is here now. Some of them are 4th and 5th generation. I can not see how its fair to kick them out. Regardless of all the atrocities that is taking place, no body can argue that Israel in its current form is much worse than apartheid… but on the other hand, we are condemned to live together, and, its not that hard, for heaven’s sake have we forgot how much we have in common with them? We are both Human. how does that not matter…
I personally, would like to believe in a rosy future, I’d like to advocate a one-state solution… I can’t see any other real solution…

This middle east has seen a lot of people come and go, we were not the first people here, and the israelis wont be the last, thats one of the things that make this land what it is. We always manage to reconcile with ourselves.
Israel has a lot to do, because, even in a normal case, when u move into a neighborhood, u have to get along with the neighbors. In Israel’s case, its much more complicated, we have refugees that need to go back to their homes as well, we have lands, we have bitter memories that we need to forget, they have got a lot to do… but I would never stand against a gesture, regardless how small it is…

SyriaComment » Archives » Introducing the Creative Forum: Commemorating the Golan Heights Says:
June 4th, 2007 at 11:59 am

[…] Kabawat imagined what it would be like for Syrians and Israelis to be good […]

Mr. Israeli Says:
June 4th, 2007 at 3:07 pm

Guys, I suggest we do not continue to discuss history and the ongoing Israeli abuse of human rights, as it would certainly NOT bring us any closer to peace. I can promise you, that for every example of Israeli abuse, I can bring up two examples of Syrian abuse towards it own people. This is not going to work if we’re to step into the boxing ring, and start dealing punches. We should search for the humane sides which we all do share. We must find the way to identify with one another’s concerns, and to begin the seemingly-impossible path to mutual empathy. I know how tempting it is to go back to blaming one another - it’s so much easier… But we mustn’t. Not anymore.

More Proud Syrian Says:
June 4th, 2007 at 11:00 pm

It sounds that Hind has determined the future of the “occupied Golan” throgh a hot chocolate cup in a fancy skiing event. What a lovely dreamy peace agreement. Hot chocolate made her and her friend to forget the still hot blood sheded by Israeli armey. We talk as it is so simple to give up a land that has been forcebly “raped” by a bunch of migrant people who came all the way from Russia, Africa and the US. Hind needs to better read history and judge the future upon. Why forget a 40 years of opression and occupation? if Hinds barely remember the 1967 and 1973 wars, so we go for an easy process of peace. I shall say that most Syrians would disagree with Hind’s unfair peace agreement (which I call it “giving up” agreement) on a warm moment mixed with hot chocolate and romantic views. Peace for Land, and nothing less!

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 5th, 2007 at 12:12 am

My dear friend more proud Syrian:

I guess you did not read my letter in full; obviously, you immediately judge me and put me in the category of the naive who drink hot chocolate in a fancy skiing event and just dream about Peace. I did say: “security, recognition and stability for you (Israel), and the full Golan returned to Syria.
Full Golan returned is the land right? It is peace for land.
I believe strongly in Justice Peace, opposing the killing by the Israelis army, opposing the terrorist acts, the suicide bombs, and call for peace in return to our land. Security for Israel the full returned of Golan for Syria.
I want fair peace without forgetting my Palestinian brothers and sisters,
Also, I am not going to spend my years discussing the return of our land, our right etc… And doing nothing about it.
Stand up with me and oppose the killing, oppose the blood shaded by the Israelis, the killing of the civilian by the suicide bombs.
And call for Peace. Security for Israel, and the full returned of the Golan to Syria.
My friend it is a dreamy peace, but who say it is forbidden to have a dream in better tomorrow.
I know the history very well, and I know that Fair Peace is better than sitting around and feeling sorry and angry. And spend another 40 years in blood and death.
Thank you.

sitelkoul Says:
June 5th, 2007 at 1:55 am

As I read the comments I agree with all the writers. Now, What to do is a big question. We should start- How to do-question. If it only takes 90 minutes! that is easy. I think the neighboring countries should solve this issue themselves without interference from outside.

We need a To Do list from both sides to agree and apply for immediate action, peacefully. If Berlin wall came down peacefully, then we have Hope!

Alex Says:
June 5th, 2007 at 4:17 am

Sitekoul,

I agree with your suggestion.

You start : )

I will think of my to do list in the mean time. Maybe tomorrow I’ll write it.

LattakiaBoy Says:
June 5th, 2007 at 6:56 am

If Mr Israeli is correct in his assumption that Israeli leaders have a free hand in deciding the fate of the Golan without much opposition from their people, then making peace should be 90 minutes away. Bashar has asked to start the peace process, so there is the Syrian will to begin. Now, the formula in my humble opinion should be the full return of the golan with some partial right for Israel to its water source ( agreement on future water usage is very important.) Syria must have no military presence in the Golan, with Police handling security issues. Israel may not keep its military posts on Jabal il Sheikh ( Mt Hermon). As a good will gesture, Syria may begin this process by returning the remains of Elie Cohen the Egyptian Israeli spy. It would mean alot for Israelis and Syrians would have nothing to lose form that act.
How is that for a start, please add or comment on anything.
PS. Hind, shoukran 3a hal Niqash!

dkmy Says:
June 5th, 2007 at 8:27 am

“The creation of Israel is one of the most immoral misconducts of foreign policy, and one of the most painful remnants of colonialism”. I wonder about that statement. I seem to recall that modern Syria itself is a colonial creation. What exactly makes the colonially created modern Syria morally superior to the colonially created Israel? It’s morally superior ruling Baath party? It’s years of moral intervention in Lebanon? As an Israeli, I am tired of being accused of being immoral by people who claim to be morally superior to me. Let’s put these accusations aside. They lead only to more resentment and misunderstanding. I. as an Israeli, am not morally superior to any Syrian citizen. Yet I am definitely not any less. I long for peace as much as any of you, but fear that as long as violence, on both sides, is considered a legitimate tactic in this conflict, we will never see the end of it. Accusing Israel of being “one of the most immoral misconducts of foreign policy” is violent to the extreme.

Matan Says:
June 5th, 2007 at 11:53 pm

let’s just blame the Brits and French for everything!
Who signed the Sykes Picot agreement, shafting the Arabs? them. Who gave the Balfur declaration, and then reversed their position, breaking their promise to the Zionists while Jews were being persecuted all over Europe? Them. Who left the Middle East in shambles, leaving a huge mess and a bunch of puppet royals? THEM!
Let’s find a common cause to vent our anger, then sign a peace treaty already.

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 6th, 2007 at 4:38 am

My dear Israelis friends:
Again, Olmert let you down; yesterday he refused the peace talk with Syria.
Have the courage of my Jews friends in Toronto and Say” No” not in our name.
My Jews friends in Toronto, boycotts Indigo book store because the owner sent money to support the Military in Israel.
We support the entire donation to Israel, school, hospitals, etc…. but not to any military. Just imagine that instead money paid for the military in Afghanistan, Israel, Iraq, Lebanon paid to construct the countries and build school and Hospitals to benefit the people in Middle East from all religions.
Be Peace builders, and demonstrate in Israel, and tell Olmert” not in our Name” we refused the war and we want Peace not War.
I am sure many of the Syrian people will support you in your demonstration against Olmert, who is refusing all the peace gestures. Just say it “Not in your name”.

Yazan Says:
June 6th, 2007 at 11:34 am

dkmy,

I never said that any Israeli is morally inferior to a Syria. My whole post was in fact saying that we are both humans, and that should matter the least.

Now about the creation of Israel.
Yes my friend, it is an immoral conduct of international politics. Syria has been a geographical and social unit throughout at least 2000 years, Syrians were always called Syrians, they identified themselves as such, regardless of their other ethnicities or religions, or or…
Nobody BROUGHT Syrians here, kicked out some indigenous population and placed them in their place… does that not make a difference?
I can not say I understand the grave feeling of being prosecuted for thousands of years because of a religion. And I, by all means, is disgusted at what humans can do. But at the very same time, I can never understand such a treatment to the Palestinians… being a victim does not give you that right. And I know that you will backfire, and I agree, there is nothing sacred in someone blowing himself in a nightclub… but you really, honestly, think he wouldve done that if you had given him any other option? [And I am in no way endorsing that nor legitimizing it]… You have the upper hand. You can give these people their land, and their lives back… at least whats left of it.

Matan Says:
June 6th, 2007 at 9:24 pm

yazan- I will not argue Mid-east geopolitics with you. I will, however say this: They gut that blew himself in a nightclub had a choice: NOT to blow himslef up in a nightclub. I want to emphasize that I am for a return to the 1967 borders for a full comprehensive peace. You should know, that by legitimizing suicide bombing, you are in partly responsible for the occupation too! if the Palestinians have accepted compromise in 1935,1939 and 1947 there would have been no occupation. If the palestinians would adopt a non violent form of resistence they would have a state in a month. Tops.

Alex Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 12:11 am

Matan,

I agree that non-violent resistance is highly effective… I wish the Palestinians had a Gandhi type of leader.

But the problem is that for the longest time, Israelis have been electing the most hard line prime ministers. Prime ministers Sharon, Netanyahu, or Olmers are not the type that offer compromises to Palestinians who demonstrate peacefully.

Basically they don’t have a charismatic and wise leader, you only elect right wing leaders who do not give your Arab neighbors much hope.

And if Mr. Olmert’s current government collapses, we will likely end up with Netanyahu?

dkmy Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 3:23 am

Yazan,

To deny that Jews have a bond to Palestine is to deny history. We did not descend upon this land randomly, kicking out it’s indigenous people for no apparent reason. There is something so extreme and misleading in these views - what can you possibly think of these people that just descended from nowhere and kicked everybody out? As Matan says, we have consistently agreed to proposals to share this land and were denied again and again. But I realize that you are trying to understand and be compassionate and I am grateful for that. I disagree with Alex regarding his evaluation of our past PM’s. Rabin died for his attempts at making peace, and his premiership was one of the bloodiest times in Israel, when bus loads of people were blown up almost on a monthly basis - all this during the creation of the Palestinian authority. PM Barak tried again in camp David. Nothing came out of it but more extremism and violence. We desperately need pragmatic leaders on the Palestinian side - leaders who understand that the wild eyed Islamic utopia will not happen. There will be no greater Palestine. We will not ship ourselves back off to Russia. I have spent some time reading Hamas’ constitution - a foul, racist hate tract filled with the same old accusations of world Jewry dominating the media, finance etc. Great stuff for “Der Strumer”, but not a pragmatic solution for the Palestinians. I agree with Matan. I am for a return to the 1967 borders for a full comprehensive peace. But tell me, will Hamas accept that Israel will no longer be regarded as a Waqf?

Alex Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 3:47 am

dkmy,

But I specified Sharon, Netanyahu and Olmert, no?

I wish you would elect another Rabin … an Abba Eban … that’s the point I’m trying to make.

I used t like Mr. Barak, but sadly I think he messed up the Syrian and Lebanon track… read president Clinton’s book.

Yazan Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 8:22 am

dkmy,
I am not trying to judge you, but, anyway you look at it [religiously, historically, or geopolitically] you didnt have more right to this land than the palestinians. You are connected to it, through history, and religion, they are too…
How exactly do you expect someone to share a state that says “A Jewish State”… How extreme is that?
dont get me wrong, i am all for a bi-national state, I believe in sharing, i believe in co-existance… but seriously? dont you think, naming a state The Jewish state is racist to the other occupants of this land [just as much as naming my country Arab Syria, is… but thats another discussion that i dont want to go into now…]

Bottom line, forget all that, fast forward, now, here…
How many Israelis do u think i meet everyday, over the net, or in starbucks, or in just any random bookstore… take another guess of how many of them think it is their absolute “historical” right to keep the golan heights?
You tell me, what kind of peace is that offering me?

Unlike the palestinian track, The Syrian part is very, very obvious, and if you really cant get it since Geneva then its really sad.
Give back the Golan until 1967 borders, for a comprehensive peace [And I can confidently say that 90% of syrians genuinely believe in this, can you say the same thing about israelis?]. It’s painfully simple, yet, Barak decided to bail on it in Shepperd’s Town.

The Arab summit suggested that you go back to the 1967 borders in return for comprehensive peace, your PM snubbed it.

dkmy Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 8:55 am

Yazan,
I agree with the fast forward part. In the here and now, I would agree to returning the heights for comprehensive peace tomorrow. As simple as that. The new generation of Israelis, and I’m talking about people born around the Yom Kippur war, are fed up. The old political elites on both sides have led us to war and devastation for 40 years. Enough. I agree with the problem of defining Israel as strictly a Jewish state. But I feel that we must move on. I don’t know if you’ve read The Economist’s leader on the six day war in their last issue, but it defines the conflict as “self defeating madness”. I couldn’t agree more. We need courage to stop this insanity. I must say that this sort of dialog gives me some hope.

Yazan Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 10:59 am

dkmy,
I agree that we have been “blessed” with leaders from hell… regardless, I am glad we can find such middle ground that we can base a solution for the REAL [Israel/Palestine] problem on…

One of our greatest play writers [Saadallah Wannous] said once,
Peace, needs, requires, Fundamental change in Israel’s social and political structure on one hand, and in the Arab’s on the other hand.

He also said, “We are condemned with hope…”, We are condemned to think, that at some point, both sides WILL change, because of necessity to survive…

I hope we can do it for better reasons.

This is a documentary thats about him, and the conflict through him. I highly recommend watching it, its far from propagenda, and gives you a human insight into our side, I think we need that, on both sides.
http://zozo2k3.blogspot.com/2007/05/blog-post_20.html

cheers

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 11:55 pm

Dear all:
I agree with dkmy this dialogue will give us all hope. Thank you Yazan, Alex, Matan, for keeping the dialogue alive.
Building bridges is always better from building walls.

robert Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 5:12 am

yes, indeed great to hear all these opinions on this post and the others on this site.

few things bother me. i have the feeling that most of the syrians here are from the US or CANADA, which are different i guess and do not represent the average syrians and her opinions.

however, can anyone translate Diala’s post? thanks

as to all the proud syrians. what is the idea in highlighting that you are proud? what wouldnt you? isnt that the default? do i have to represent my self as a proud israeli? - i just wonder does it has any meaning?

i am still worried, as i read posts here and at the others on this website, in which people describe the israelies as a bunch of russians/germans/other europeans/americans/arabs united by their religion who arrived here and make problems. we are the aparthheid, we are the one who humiliate the palastineins, while syrians are so nice people. they do not control lebanon with fear, killing its leaders? they dont support hizballa and hama, instead of negotiating with israel? these are legitimate actions.
you are saying that syria been here all the time. also israel. we left it 2000 years ago and no one been here. no nation called palastinians. there were different leaders here: british/turkish/english againa and what ever. there were differnt people here, including few jews mainly in jerusalem. most of the so called palastinians are arabs who were brought by the english from lebanon and the neighbors to build their ports and other projects, or moved for many reasons. thats it…, but i think that the palastinians deserve Gaza and the west bank. the question is when will you accept it that we deserve our land?
at 48 we started the indeendence war? or was it all the arab world started a war on the first morning of our existence?
you are telling that we should retun the lands to the palastinians. you are criticizing Ariel Sharon (i dont support him), but he returned Gaza. what happened since then? the hama kills the Phatach. they kill children. old people, women - believe me they are worse than the occupation..
why dont they care about their people? their future? what dont they rebuidl Gaza and show some stability to the world. that it will be worth to return the west bank. why do they make us fell that it will be a major mistake to move on in withdrawing from the west bank?

however, note that i am peace believer. i am for returning the Golan. i am for giving back the west bank. east jerusalem requires a more sophisticated solution.

and i want to snowboard in lebanon
believe me, not more than 10-15 years, after we all tired enough to compromise… the question is how much blood will it take. it will be great - just amazing!

robert

DJ Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 8:00 am

Robert;

First of all not all Syrians here are those who are now living in Canada and the US, and even if they are, you are getting a fair sample of what an average Syrian(s) would say, so don’t worry about that…

Now you said:
”but i think that the palastinians deserve Gaza and the west bank. the question is when will you accept it that we deserve our land?”

Deserve your land in what sense? And what land exactly? The recent Arab summit initiative already implies your right to exist within your borders of 4th June 1967….what else did you infer from it?

on the other hand, if your people (I insist, people not politicians) are really relying on peace as their long term interest, why isn’t anybody from your end discussing the endless settlements in west bank and Jolan?
Isn’t time for your people to make the hard choice of relinquishing these settlements and find alternatives for people to live in?

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 8:22 am

I wrote the letter and the comments from the old City of Damascus, and yes, many Syrian will support me in calling a Fair and Justice Peace with Israel.

And as proud Syrian, yes, we are very proud of our country, our nation and our good people.

We are a nice people, and we don’t agree of killing the Palestinian, Israelis or Lebanese.

We oppose the killing of anybody, or interfering in other country’s policy.

Robert, accusation and generalization is not a good way to start a peace my friend, or even to start a good dialogue among nation.

Albert Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 8:25 am

To all you well meaning people who are posting here, especially the few Israelis who are struggling visibly to maintain a patena of reasonablenes and a pseudo quest for “peace”, you all forget one undeniable postulate for peace and that is: For peace to be viable and to survive, it must be fair and honourable to both sides. Honourable to the ones who have suffered egtregiously at the hands of the ones that perpetrated the crimes and carried out the atrocities over the connected and vile decades. It is this justice that needs to be addressed before any viable peace can take root. For without redressing the historical crimes, there can be no peace.

It is stated by dkmy that: “To deny that Jews have a bond to Palestine is to deny history. We did not descend upon this land randomly, kicking out it’s indigenous people for no apparent reason. There is something so extreme and misleading in these views - what can you possibly think of these people that just descended from nowhere and kicked everybody out? As Matan says, we have consistently agreed to proposals to share this land and were denied again and again.” How vulgar and how racist an opinion that is that he states. How obcene and how devoid of any historical truth it is. How repulsive and egregiously and patently false it is. For INDEED, the jew did descend on Palestine to decimate its population and to drive them out. No less than ben gurion, Sharett, Lord Moin , Rothchild and other zionist leaders have stated openly that there there can be NO land of Israel as long as the Palestinians are there.

To deny history as dkmy denies it and denies in a most obscene and racist way is to deny the humanity and legality of the Palestinians that the Jew has desimitated over the decades. To deny the humanity of the Palestinas that the Jew has driven forcibly out of their homes, villages and farms to make way for the arrogant racist European hordes that came to replace them like some mad conquering vulture swooping in on its intended prey.

It is the height of absurdity and the abrogation of reason, fairness, legality and human compassion to accuse your victom of NOT cooperating in the 1930,s to allow the criminal access to your homes and land. It is the height of racist arrogance that a Jew can accuse the Palestinians of bringing ion their own destruction by not agreeing to simply kneel down and kiss the ass of the Europeans who flooded into their lands with the intent of taking them.

How absurd one can be when they regurgitate the neauseating filth about what that Ukrain born/Miwaukee school teacher and mass murderess, Golda Maei said: “Its not as though Palestine was populated. palestine was a land without a people and the jews were a people without a land,” The obfuscation of history by the Jew is noted and recorded for all to see when it suites their purpose.

How neauseating and illigitame is the argument that “we are coming back home to the land we left 2,000 years ago” as though the passage of time means nothing and as though the people of the land that have been there for all those centuries and did not leave, meant nothing. The inportant thing is that the Jew is now coming back.

How can one prove ancestral connection with Palestine that spans the passage of 20 venturies when the overwhelming majority of European Jews are descendant from the Khazars of Russia and have never had a connection to palestine?

The behind the scenes arm twisting that went on prior to the creation of the racist state of Israel is galling for one to read, and to see the extent to which western powers were bought and paid for by the Rothchilds of the world and the imperialist hubris and racism of the US and the UK in disregard for the Palestinians as human.

I can go on forever listing the litany of crimes throught the entire 100 years of the 20th century: crimes that HAVE to be addressed and reconciled with justice for its victoms for any lasting peace to take hold.

We then see the damnable absurdity of of a dkmy who attacks Hamas for its allegedly racist and violent charter. he is a LIAR! For if indeed he can read Arabic, and NOT read the Israeli translations by MEMRI, then he would even be nore guilty because he would then be KNOWINGLY lying. Hamas has NO such agenda and their agenda is simple: Justice for the Palestinians and the right of return, that everyu other people anywhere in the world have, to go back to their homes that were stolen.

Yes, there should be peace and there should also be justice. israel has to be made to redress the wrongs it has and continues to conduct as it oppresses the Palestinians and treats them like animals.

Its wonderful that Hind Kabawat found “friendship” with a jewess over a cup of hot chocolate. Yet she truly found nothing but a paliative and scratch an Israeli just under the skin and you will find out that 99% of them believe the Arabs are sub human and that they have the right to continue their illegal and obscene occupation……… as Obscene, as racist as having “JEW ONLY” roads for the Israeli illegal settlers on the West Bank.

Peace, YES!……. But peace with JUSTICE first and punishment for the criminals.

I am a Palestinian that years for peace and yet i do NOT want peace at any price, since I do NOT believe that illigitamacy mellows with age like wine and that crimes become acceptable with the passage of time.

Would the jews of the world forgive the Nazi’s for they allegedly did against them? NO! Then why are you expecting the Palestinians to forgive the Jews for what they did to us, that for us is just as murderous and more than what the Nazi’s did top them.

Peace by all means: but peace with Justice first.

dkmy Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 12:38 pm

Albert,
Here are 6 choice quotations from your reply (and I appreciate the use of “the jew”, “the jewess” etc. Nice de-humanising touch there.)

1.” …the arrogant racist European hordes that came to replace them like some mad conquering vulture swooping in on its intended prey.”

2.” …when they regurgitate the neauseating filth about what that Ukrain born/Miwaukee school teacher and mass murderess, Golda Maei”.

3.”…she truly found nothing but a paliative and scratch an Israeli just under the skin and you will find out that 99% of them believe the Arabs are sub human and that they have the right to continue their illegal and obscene occupation”.

4. “… when the overwhelming majority of European Jews are descendant from the Khazars of Russia and have never had a connection to palestine?”

5. “… to see the extent to which western powers were bought and paid for by the Rothchilds of the world and the imperialist hubris and racism of the US and the UK in disregard for the Palestinians as human.”

6.”…the jew did descend on Palestine to decimate its population and to drive them out”.

I will not even comment on these passages. They speak for themselves.

Now for your accusation that I am a liar.

Here is the link to the decidedly english version of the Hamas charter, taken from Yale Law school’s “Avalon project”:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm.

Here is article 13 from this charter:

“Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. “Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.”

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers? ”

Here is article 22:

“For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. ”

I think all this speaks for itself.

For the last few days I have been delighted by this forum and by the mutual respect and understanding that I have encountered here.

I am happy that albert’s post is the exception, and not the rule.

Albert Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 2:03 pm

dkmy;

You are galling in your arrogance and infuriating in your naivette.

I stand by every single word that I have written and could have said more…. much more.

Your response to what I said is a mixture of hypocricy and sheer childishness. By stating that you will not argue or repond to what I said about the Jews is cowardice in the extreme since you simply have no response and stating that you what I said speaks for itself is the last refuge of a scoundral who wants to appear superior by stating that he will not sully his hands with such filth.

But then again, your hands are already filthy and driping with the Bloof of the Palestinians, the Syrians, the Lebanese, the Jordanians and the Egyptians, not to mention the Iraqis as well.

As I said, save me the sophystry of your “hurt” feelings.

The so called articles of the hamas are NOT articles but statements and I am not familiar with them, although I will look at the Arabic form and see that in fact that is NOT what they say and even IF that is what they say, what is wrong with it, in light of the murderous and vile occupation and dispoiling of Palestine? What would you expect, an invitation to a tea party perhaps?

And, dkmy, the Jews did descend on Palestine as a vulture intent on decimating its population and to drive them out in order to create your glorified “Only democracy” in the Middle East.

1) “The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, ‘there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.’ He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms.” and that, by the dkmy, is when the Jerws were less that 4% of Palestine at the time.

2) By 1948, the Jew was not only able to ‘defend himself’ but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’…Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’”

3) “During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim…[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha… The village was destroyed that night… Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April… Abu Zureiq was completely demolished… Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.”

4)“Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan…[said] ‘many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland…[Dayan stated] ‘They didn’t even try to hide their greed for the land…We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn’t possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

5)That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab … He stated, “We took most of Palestine by force from the Arabs and blamed the victims for their losses”

6) An Israely by the name of Nathan Chofshi residing in Tel Aviv, had this to say about the creation of Ireal, “Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous sickness of baseless hatred for the Arabs. It is bound to bring eventual ruin upon us. Only then will the old and the young in our land realise how great our responsibility to those miserable wronged Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who were brought from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruit of whose gardens, orchard and vinyards we gather; and in whose cities that we robbed, we put up houses of education, charity and prayer, while we babble and rave about our being the “People of the Book” and the “light of the Nations.”

The vulgarity and obscenity of the Jews in Israel and what they have done to the Palestians is a crime that has its stench reaching to high heaven, even though there is NO god there to smell it.

So spare me your sophystry and hurt feelings and holier than thou attitude that somehow you are so superior to me because I state the obvious and I mention the “elephant” in the room and don’t make “nice” just to appear reasonable.

I am more than reasonable and rational when my rights and my grievences are met and redressed, and NOT when they are perpetually trampled on by a racist society like that of Israel that knows NO descency and has no ethics or honour that one can trust in.

Remember dkmy, I am a Palestian and NOT some easilly deluded American or European that will fall for your revisionist history and glossing over of your crimes against humanity.

Maybe if you listen closely while you sleep at night all comfortable in your cozy bed, you just might hear anguished cries that sound human. You just might hear the screaming of a parent that just lost its family in the middle of the night to yet another Israeli counter “terror” attack on the largest concentration camp in the world, Gaza. if you listen closely, you might hear the pleadings of mothers and fathers to feed their starving childeren or medicines denied them to save lives and to alleviate pain and suffering.

However, even if you hear them, I doubt you will do anything about it, because you are a “superior Jew” and legend in your own mind, and after all, as so many slogans carried by Jews in demonstrations state… “The only good Arab is a dead Arab”

We all want to embrace peace, dkmy! Yet, my people have all too often discovered that your peace is the peace of the grave and the embrace of death for them.

First admit your henoius crimes, as you demand others to admit them against you…….. then redress them and compensate us…….. then come to us and we will break bread and have supper together. Otherwise, may you drink from a poisened challace, the very same one you forced us to drink from for most of the last century.

Albert Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 2:50 pm

dkmy;

Here are some more quotes from your lineup of Jewish Angels that might be taken in context of whatever the Hamas charter has to say and it cannot say enough.

These quotes show the inhumanity and the viciousness of Israel and the calamity that befell the Palestinians and to whom now the Israelis ascribe guilt for bringing their tragedy onto themselves. IF only they accepted partition of their country as we accepted it.

Tell me dkmy, what people would accept the partition of their country and to give the majority of it to recently arrived foreign settlers most of whom entered Palestine illegally?

In any case, here is the Palestinian reason for a charter:

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.” — David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”– Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”– David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”– David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”– David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”– Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”– Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

“Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.” — Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

“This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”– Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”– Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”– Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”– Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”‘ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”– Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

“The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”– Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”– Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.”(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”– Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”– Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”…. — Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”– Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”– Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”– Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online.

There is NO end to your arrogance and yet you expect the Palestinians to jenuflex to you in obedience and kneel in subjugation.

Alex Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 3:31 pm

Dear Albert,

I appreciate the effort you are putting into the discussion. As I stated earlier, elsewhere, this experiment does not have to be exclusively a peace lovers’ place to celebrate and support each other. Every opinion, including yours, is welcome, because I know it represents a the anger and frustrations of a large portion of Arab society.

However … I had to edit your comments above. The first comment to be edited. You can criticize Israel, but just like any other forum … please avoid the negativity towards other religions.

If we do not control our tempers, the discussion will quickly stop. Let us try to keep it calmer.

I will ask you honestly (since this in anonymous) … If Israel now makes a strategic policy shift to accept 242 and 338 … will that be enough for you to forget the many mistakes that you stated above?

Will a partial move, of let’s say, returning the Golan heights, make things considerably better/ or will you only support a comprehensive solution?

DJ Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 4:57 pm

I agree with Alex, we should not malign religions

Albert Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 5:18 pm

Alex;

I am not sure what you mean by ” .. I had to edit your comments above. The first comment to be edited. You can criticize Israel, but just like any other forum … please avoid the negativity towards other religions.” since I can still see what I wrote and since not once did I denegrate anyone’s religion, even though religion in general should be banned since it most certainly has caused so much anguish when millions die in the name of the various gods.

I am equally puzzled when you write.. “As I stated earlier, elsewhere, this experiment does not have to be exclusively a peace lovers’ place to celebrate and support each other. Every opinion, including yours, is welcome,….. ” since the implication is that I am a person who does not believe in peace and instead am simply antagonistic for the sake of antagonism, which is the farthest thing from the truth.

I am constantly amazed by the politically correct and their assumptions that are nothing more than sensorship to their way of thinking, while extrolling the virtues of their own “platform” in such pablum and useless ways. At least genuine anger born from the crucible of injustice and inhumanity at its worst, has merit in showing genuine feelings instead of feely good feelings for the sake of getting along.

Alex, I am not quite sure what it is that you are attempting to accomplish here, besides provide a “forum for peace lovers”, which is a noble cause indeed, since peace always is a better option that war. Yet I can tell you from my many years of experience during many such discussions in real life,that the reality of life is totally different from the intellectual persuite of such indeavors when the Israeli is NOT interested in peace and only give verbal platitudes to delude others into thinking they are for peace, when in fact peace is anathema for them.

However, you may be correct as far as what you are attempting to accomplish, and as usual, the Arab is the one who inadvertantly always appears to be the one who has to genuflex to the barbarian and sue for peace even though it is he that has been attacked and wronged and humiliated.

Peace is indeed a noble cause and one that needs to be persued. However peave at any price is just as onerous as war, since sooner or later, the one getting the short end of the stick will never accept the peace for the sake of peace and without justice and dignity.

So, thank you for allowing me to post on here and I will now leave to a somewhat less politically correct place that is more genuinely interested in airing differences as opposed to “getting along” for getting along.

The Zionists will always deceive and obfuscate and steal. There will be NO peace simply becayse they refuse to accept peace which will mean the halting of their expansion and hegemony.

Wake up and smell the coffee, folks.

Good luck and goodbye.

Michel Nahas Says:
June 8th, 2007 at 10:59 pm

Dear everyone,

My take on this isse is this:

Israel has no right for the land encompassed by the Golan, and BTW Turkey does not have the right to Antakia as well. The Golan was never Israel, perhaps with the exception of one or two decades under David and Solomon, right? So, I think (as others) that it is a tremedous loss of time and energy to evoke history, or even biblical history. Prety much every religion has claims, I am myself a minister, but to impose my religious beliefs on people of other faiths, is childish, mailny when everyone knows that exactly for these people religious stuff normally plays few or no role at all on these peoples’ minds.

Do you want to know what would happen in Syria, if the Golan would be given back? As a South America that grew up in a dictatorship I can assure you all that Assad would fall imediately or in two years max. Countries that are not in state of war, who doesn’t really need an army, doesn’t need generals or their children in power.

Concerning the Palestinian issue, and I am as sorry for Israelis as I am for Palestinians on that, Syria should simply disregard the Palestinian issue. It is not of its concern, period. Arabs are supposed to be brothers, bla, bla, bla, but the fact is arabs are not very enthus about helping one another. I would even venture myself in stating that the more proper rule for Arabs is not “the enemy of y foe is my friend”, but instead “the misfortune of my “friend” is my gain”.

Syria is an awesome country, at least in religious relations, which is my field. I invite all of you to read the US State Department reports on religious liberties on both Israel and Syria. Compare them. Everyone with a shred of honesty has to recognize that Syria is more tolerant (religious speaking) than both Israel AND Lebanon itself.

So, in short, no-one unhapily have interest in peace (at least not those in power). Assad would lose his chair. Israel would lose American Jews’ support. Bush and his ratpack would not be allowed to support this peace agenda by the weaponry industry complex. Iran would lose its bridge head, on the Mediterranean. Lebanon would permanently lose its peace. Europe would not have an excuse not to invest and commit economically to Syria. Jordan would lose their status of America’s most trusted aly on the levant. Egypt would have to justify political AND religious persecution, to M.B., Copts, etc. The Palestinians would have to accept whatever Israel might want to charitably give them.

So, my friends, let’s wait one more generation. And I’m very sorry for that! But… I believe in miracles, nevertheless!

Matan Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 12:09 am

Albert:
In 1939, the Brits have issued a decree banning further immigration of jews from palestine, and invited the “local population” (wich was an Arab majority at the time) to formulte the a nation in Palestine in 5 years time. this, for all intents and purposes would have created a plaestinian state throughout Mandatory Palestine. The Palestinian leadership had refused, because it would include the Jewsih minority. Don’t give me your bullshit; if you want to blame others for your misfortunes, blame the inept, idiotic, corrupt string of leaders your people chose through the years. I know it’s easy to blame Zionist Jews– and you name quite a few of them I don’t like myself- but your historical blindness, cherry picking little vignettes that prove nothing, and refusal to discuss the world as it is today are pathetic. You expect me to believe you won’t bring harm to my person and those i love if you’re my fellow citizen? listen to yourself- prosecuting criminals! As if I’d trust a historically one-sided, ignorant bigot to judge me!
Another thing- are you writing this from the occupied territories? I certainly hope so- there is nothing more morally base than a person who would fight to the last drop of OTHER people’s blood.

Alex Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 1:41 am

Matan,

As I told Albert, please feel free to say anything you feel like saying, but do some editing first, count to ten. I have been debating some real Likudists on other blogs, and they started by calling me “a supporter of terror”. But in all cases I manged eventually to convince them to support returning the Golan to Syria.

Be patient with those who call you names at the beginning. It might be challenging, but you can do it : )

Albert,

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I did not think you wanted peace. I was making fun of the way some people perceive me when I said “Peace lovers” … that referred to the impression that some have that people like me would offer additional compromises in order to make friends.

I agree with you .. but what you explained applies, in my opinion to some portion of Israelis, not to “Jews”. You think I like those mad settlers who carry their machine guns looking for a Palestinian to shoot? You think I like the many greedy Israelis who left comments on Haaretz saying “the land we won in 67 is ours because we won the war. Period”

Please re-consider coming back to continue exposing those sad facts about those Israelis … not ALL JEWS. That’s all I hoped you would agree too.

Can you find me bad quotes from itzhak rabin or Abba Eban for example?

Finally, regarding the purpose of this project … it will not liberate Palestine, no. But the 1973 war did not either.

Play along, if you are not bored yet. Maybe there is something useful somehow.

Matan Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 1:37 pm

Alex,
I apologize if my words seem unmeasured- it’s just frustrating to see that every time the discussion turns to 1947, Israelis keep apologizing over facts that, for the sake of conviviality, I’d call highly disputed. I firmly believe that a solution can be reached, in which all parties in this conflict can find an answer to their security needs as well as their sense of pride. I don’t however, believe in ignoring statements I know to be untrue, in order to facilitate the discussion forward. If people feel the need to vent anger and frustration with poetic verse, that’s fine. But I, for one, will not sit through it quietly.
All of my “rants”, both here and in George’s blog, are a plea to relinquish talk of blame- which can be spread liberally on both sides of the conflict- into discussions of solutions.

DJ Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 1:43 pm

Alex,
As I said that peace between Syria and Israel is inspirable from the settlement of the Palestinian issue, I would suggest that we invite some of our Palestinian brethren (and maybe some Arabs?) to participate in this forum…
What do you think?

Alex Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 4:26 pm

DJ,

Let me ask you a direct question: If President Assad announced to us Syrians six months after negotiations started that he agreed with the Israelis on the terms of the final settlement with Israel. The return of Golan, definition of DMZs, and establishing relations between Syrian and Israel.

And that’s it. No “gains” for the Palestinians. As we know, Syria will not negotiate on behalf of Palestinians. THEY made it clear to us Syrians that they do not want us to ask them to link our two tracks. We used to insist that they do not negotiate alone in the nineties, but they explained to us that they can not wait for us to solve our issues with Israel and the United States before they can talk about their own solution.

So Hafez Assad eventually told President Clinton that he will not do anything to complicate the Oslo agreements and wished them good luck even though he was sure it will eventually fail because it was not good enough.

So today, what exactly is the nature of Syria’s relations to “the Palestinians”? … and who are “the Palestinians”?

My understanding is that what changed since the nineties is the following:

1) There is no clear leader on their side .. no more Arafat. Now they are split between two (or more) Camps.

2) Half of them want to work together with Syria (merge the two tracks) the other half want to either be totally independent, or to work with other Arab leaders .. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia ….

3) In general, the Palestinians realize they made a mistake in the nineties by snubbing Hafez Assad. They thought they are better off without the burden of the Syrian track. Today they realize that Israel is now in the hands of Likudists, and the United States in the hands of believers in “constructive chaos”.

So let us look at the very important Palestinian factor:

- What do you expect form “Syria” to achieve for the Palestinians during the following negotiations?
- What do YOU believe is Syria’s proper relation to “the Palestinians today”? Do we help them even if they and the rest of the Arab countries will tell us “don’t interfere in the affairs of Lebanon and Palestine”?
- Do we really have an ability to force Israel to make the necessary decisions on Jerusalem, the right of return and other thorny issues?

I feel as hurt as you feel when we watch the savage crimes the heavily armed Israelis commit against the Palestinian civilians when they go in there on one of their typical revenge missions after one or more of Israelis were killed in a typical suicide mission. But does that mean Syria is responsible for the Palestinians? Why don’t we do the same to what is happening in Sudan? They are human too, they are Arabs too.

Now before you think I am heartless, I will switch to addressing Matan.

Matan, as I wrote last night in Rime’s section, I believe that for now Israel will have two options

1) A strict peace treaty with Syria alone .. Golan for normal relations … a bit better than the peace you now have with Egypt. Because of the proximity of Damascus there will be many more Israelis visiting and most Syrians will receive them politely and sometimes warmly, especially if the particular Israeli visitor is a likable person. But they will hear frequent lectures about what Israel is still doing to the Palestinians. If a Likudist answers them back with “those Palestinian terrorists deserve what they are getting” then I can see a problem.

2) Syria will surely discuss the Palestinian track too. I have no doubt that Waleed Mouallem will be telling the Israelis that they need to at least start making the decisions that will more or less lead to the 1967 borders without rejecting in advance the final status of East Jerusalem, and acknowledging in general the need to “do something” to compensate them … it will be indirectly with Saudi and American Money by the way. And to allow a limited number to come back to Israel after studying their cases one by one perhaps. This would be the lest so that the Syrians can not be ridiculed by the Egyptian journalists for not doing anything for the Palestinians even though they (the Syrians) criticized and boycotted Sadat’s Egypt at the time for its separate peace treaty with Israel.

When Syria and Israel reach an agreement, it will not be limited to the future of the Golan. It will also cover Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine. An agreement on the strategic level, not a final, detailed peace agreement.

Bottom line, in my opinion, if we want the Syrian Israeli peace treaty to have a very positive effect on the remaining conflicts, we need to have warm relations … Syrian can not force Israel to do the right thing with the Palestinians … but Israelis need to know that the Syrian people will feel too guilty to adopt you as cousins or friends, and to do business with you if at the same time your prime minister (Mr. Netanyahu?) is sending his troop son a weekly basis to kill Palestinians and humiliate them.

The Syrians will try hard at the negotiations to convince the Israelis that it is in Israel’s best interest to move fast on the Palestinian track.

But an agreement will still be reached with the Golan alone. This is a decision that the Palestinians took in the nineties and we can not force them to be our children… on the official state level. Syria will not cut its relations to Hamas, but it will shift to a strong supporter to Palestinian rights in general.

But again, I am hoping that the Israelis will realize that even if they took Egypt, Jordan, then Syria out of the armed conflict, they will still live in a metal bubble if they do not reach a fair settlement with the Palestinians.

dkny Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

Albert,
As Alex advised Matan, I counted to 10. Actually, I counted for a whole day before replying. Here is my take on your views:

Using extreme, violent and hysterical language does not make you right. It just makes you extreme, violent and hysterical.

Copy-pasting the entire “Israeli quotes” section from Mona Baker’s site (http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm) does not constitute an argument.

It just shows you are capable of copy-pasting things.

We could get into a quotation war - I could bring out the old Nazi sayings of al-Husseini, founder of the Waffen SS’s Skimitar division, for example:

“Germany and Italy recognize the illegality of the Jewish National Home in Palestine. They recognize the right of Palestine and other Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements in Palestine and in other Arab countries as required by national Arab interests, and in the same way as the Jewish question in the Axis lands is being solved”.

“Go out and murder the Jewish infidel in the name of the holy Koran . . . he who kills a Jew is assured of a place in the next world”.

This seems pointless to me.

However, I have tried to express the following opinions here:

a) Israel should return the Golan heights in exchange for true peace with Syria.

b) What is needed for an end to the conflict is pragmatic leadership on both sides.

The fact that these relatively moderate views unleashed such a tirade of hate from you is damning enough, at least in my eyes.
At some point I stopped reading the words and just felt exactly what you wanted me to feel - your incredible hatred of me as a Jew.
This hatred will only lead us to more death, more destruction and the cycle of “self defeating madness” will continue ad infintum.

So wallow in your hatred, my friend, but I have had enough of it.

Pragmatic leadership. Empathy for the other side. A willingness to stop hating. This is the way forward.

The rest is just violence and hysterics.
I

Matan Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 8:21 pm

Alex:
Peace doesn’t entail anybody liking anybody else. I’m sure there are plenty of members of SeinFein, for instance that would prefer slitting the throat of an English man than talking to them. The fact that they dont anymore, is a start. I have stated before on this forum, that I believe israel is wrong to occupy the plaestinian territories. But, as you pointed out yourself, there is a division, much along the same lines, I presume, as that which decided Syria’s role in the negotiations. Until such a time as Palestinians can speak with one voice, I don’t see a reason not to begin the regional process of ending hostilities with Syria. I, personally, would be happy to visit the beautiful Golan with a visa, and even get lectures from people about the evils of the occupation while I’m there ;). I further believe that such a peace agreement would help strengthen the pragmatic camp within palestinians, and possibly finally bring about peace.

Mr. Israeli Says:
June 9th, 2007 at 11:00 pm

Matan, Alex,

If you notice, we Israelis also don’t speak with one voice, not only the Palestinians. And even if Olmert does begin to openly negotiate with Assad, a law was recently passed in Israel stating that a national referendum must take place regarding the future of the Golan, beyond any decision taken by the government. That does complicate matters, unfortunatley, which is why I keep insisting in previous comments throughout this blog that dramatic (surprising, if you will) confidence-building steps must first be made to attempt to shift public opinion. Recent polls here in Israel show that a clear majority (Ma’ariv claims 75%) now do not believe Syria is serious about peace, and is only interested in negotiations for alterior motives (Hariri investigation, US-pressure, etc.) For Farouq A-Sharaa to again openly meet with Barak (or Netanyahu, etc.) in the US may not be enough now. The more we say it, the less it will have a “dramatic effect”, but again, if Olmert suddenly appears in Damascus and addresses your parliament, or Assad in Jerusalem, that could still create an emotional earthquake that might just do its thing… I agree with your comments regarding the Palestinians. At the end of the day, when they’ll see that Israel gave back the Golan, and Israelis are buying at the Souq Hamidieh (sp?) in Damascus, they too might think to themselves “well, how long are we going to wait?…”

Alex Says:
June 10th, 2007 at 2:42 am

Matan, DKNY,

I would like you to read the last two comments from Albert and Mr. Israeli … I don’t think Albert is someone you should give up on despite his anger at Israel and at the way “Jews” made Palestinians suffer. Mr. Israeli had the right approach. If someone like Albert has legitimate reasons to be angry at you, shouldn’t you allow him to express how he feels when he finally has the chance to speak to you about it?

Sometimes all it takes is a recognition and an apology.

I think there will be a lot of anger. Israeli peace makers should not be discouraged too quickly. It might take months, or years to undo the damage that Prime ministers Sharon, Shamir, and Netanyahu did.

As for hating Jews … I am confident that most of the “hate” is anger. YOU can eradicate hate when your nation takes a courageous decision to start respecting the basic human rights of Palestinians instead of treating them like potential violent criminals.

It is not a prerequisite (or precondition) to peace … it is something that should take place in parallel to a peace process … it will reinforce it.

DJ Says:
June 10th, 2007 at 5:47 am

Alex,
There is no denying the chronicles of the events which has mutually affected (and still does, for this matter) both the Palestinian and the Syrian peace tracks. Oslo was received with a reluctant agreement by Damascus; because for them (the Syrian regime..) the matter is related to principles, not politics….
It’s no use signing a peace treaty with Israel, while the Palestinians are still in the glooms of occupation. I, for one, wouldn’t consider myself at peace with Israel unless I am able to visit the Al Aqsa mosque under a flickering Palestinian flag…
You asked me what would I do, or what would be my reaction in case the secretive negotiations turned fruitful with total disregard for Palestine and the Palestinians? I haven’t thought about that really…I think it’s a pretty slim chance that could happen…
I believe that regardless of who can or can’t wait for the other, both the tracks are so intertwined that you can’t really distinctions….
Concerted effort is what I think is ideal, this might sound like an Arab unity hippo schmooze, but I think two sticks bound together are harder to break after all….
I don’t really know what Palestinians could expect from Syria with regards to their negotiations, this is why I am suggesting having some Palestinian voices onboard.

Alex Says:
June 10th, 2007 at 10:50 am

DJ,

I would be happy to invite a Palestinian to tell us about her/his expectations from Syria. But as I explained earlier, the ones I spoke to have different opinions. We will need to invite a whole group and expect that they are interested to write (most will not be motivated enough to write).

To be honest with you, I don’t think it is healthy for us Syrians to be extreme in our caring for our Arab neighbors. We surely care, and I am proud of that. But they are adults and they want to be free from our tendency to play the role of a parent to them. When Hafez Assad died, I remember how I felt when one of the American newspapers summarized it something like this: The Syrian leader who was betrayed by all the Arabs. He was betrayed by Arafat who plotted against him, By King Hussein of Jordan who tried to get him assassinated, by Saddam Hussein, by Anwar Sadat, by the Lebanese (many times)…

In Syria we have this tendency to maximize our love and sacrifice for out Arab brothers. But it is human nature… when they need Syria they want to cooperate, when they don’t they ask us to not interfere in their affairs at best, and they cooperate with the United states against us at worst.

So if you would like Syria to be effective in Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq, or the wider Arab world, Syria needs to be a success story that they all want to be part of. two years ago if you read Arab press (Saudi, Egyptian, Lebanese and Palestinian) … everyone was ridiculing Syria, not asking closer relations with it.

I believe that Syria knows what’s best for the area (not only for the Arabs) as it has repeatedly demonstrated in the past positions it took on regional issues. opposing Saddam when everyone loved him, stopping the civil war in Lebanon when no one was willing to sacrifice thousands of their soldiers in the process… and investing in people, not governments… befriending the nation of Iran even when it was a liability to do so, adopting the Armenian refugees …

But again, Syria needs to be successful before the Arabs ask Syria to play a role on their behalf. And again … they all look after their own interests, I am happy we care more .. but there is a limit to sacrifice. This is not officially a parent child relationship.

What does everyone else think? Maybe I should make this a new topic for next month … What role do you think Syria should play in Lebanon, Palestine, and Palestinian affairs. Let’s see if Syrians are really still secretly believers in “Greater Syria”.

LattakiaBoy Says:
June 10th, 2007 at 4:11 pm

I think we have wasted to much of our energy caring about the rest of the Arabs. I think Jordan did well with its Jordan First campaign and we should do the same. It should always be Syria First. If someone needs our support or help and asks, we should then evaluate whether it is in “our” interest to help. Like it or not we are still a developping country with limited resources that should not be wasted on arabs. These resources should benefit Syria and Syrians.

Matan Says:
June 11th, 2007 at 9:14 pm

I should probably clarify something-
the reason Albert’s earlier comments sent my blood boiling, is that I as an individual have been a peace activist until i went to the U.S. to study. I have been demonstrating, rallying, doing joint concerts with palestinians (I’m a musician) etc. I. and many others like me, were born well into this conflict. We had nothing to do with its beginning. I wasn’t even born in 73. And so, if we are to end this occupation, it is vital that we solve the CURRENT situation on the ground. I have many palestinian friends, both here in the U.S. and in Israel, and I would like being able to look them in the eye knowing they have equal rights to mine. I am simply realistic- most Israelis I know are deeply suspicious and resentful, stereotyping arabs left and right- a Bi national state could not be forced down their throat- it will end in more bloodshed. I consider the middle east my home, and, indeed, someone in this forum remarked about Israel’s strangeness, its incompatibility, if you will, with its neighbors. In the fullness of time, when Israel has properly and naturally assimilated into the region, I believe we could open the bi national question again.

Alex Says:
June 12th, 2007 at 1:21 am

Welcome back Matan!

I am a musician too, but not a good one at all.

I almost felt the same way you did when a number of Likudists called me on other blogs “supporter of terror”… but this is online communication … it take time before everyone knows who you are and what you stand for.

robert Says:
June 14th, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Dear Albert,

i am wondering what have you to say about the recent developments at the Gaza strip.

i really hope that normallity will get to the place. and that hamas will stop killing their own brothers, not speaking about children and women.

robert

robert Says:
June 15th, 2007 at 5:09 am

after reading several posts on this blog, and while reading articles on the israeli news and TV, i learned that maybe unlike what we were told that the palastinians ran away to egypt (or other), our soldiers helped them.

on the other side, now when i hear that about hundred phatach members ran away to egypt after the HAMAS revolution in Gaza, i get the impression that it was truth.
when you love your land and believe in your ideas you dont run away. you fight till the end.
if you care about your people you dont kill children and not women, what the HAMAS do. however, the good thing in the HAMAS is that they claim to be less corupted and more for the people. we will see, i think that for us it will be easier to have a peace agreement with the HAMAS. since they dont have oposition and they seem to be more BRAVE!

robert Says:
June 16th, 2007 at 2:40 pm

Dear Hind,

Please accept my applolgies, as i feel like i was missunderstod.

as to being proud syrian. i dont see any problem with it, the oposite. i was just asking why are you mentioning this - isnt it obvious?
however, i just wanted to doesn it has any particular meaning.

since you wrote:”Robert, accusation and generalization is not a good way to start a peace my friend, or even to start a good dialogue among nation.”

my appologies again. moreover, i was happy to hear that you dont like to hear about any killings on any side, and i agree to you and hope it will end soon, unlike what happens recently in lebanon and Gaza.

i have to admit that the recent developments gives me the feeling that the palastinians dont want to take responsibility on their life and future.
quite amazing the killing the Hamas is making on the Phatach members, after all they are their people. i know that many here will say that this is because of the israelu pressure.
hmm,.. well we are not pressing Gaza for a long time..

anyway, wish all of us a sooner peace. ski in lebanon and syria, france and italia (go to the Dolomiti..
robert

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 18th, 2007 at 5:50 pm

My friend Robert,

I do appreciate your apology, we all should apologize from each others in Middle East, and everyone has his own share in hurting others. But at least we have to wake up and smell the coffee and see that war can do only harms to us, and killing will bring killing.
Robert, it hurt me to see my Palestinian brothers killing each others, like it hurt me to see the fight in Lebanon, Israel and Iraq. After all, people die and suffer and the only one who benefit are the rich, famous and the people in power.
People like you and I need to take a stand to stop the violence.

Peace.

Mr. Israeli Says:
June 19th, 2007 at 7:42 am

Hind,

The strength you find to be able to speak this way to Israelis (like myself) that have done, and continue to do, terrible things to your Arab brethren is indeed awe inspiring. I’ve had a number of exchanges with other commentators on this Blog, and found that very few, like yourself, can put the anger, hatred, and accusations aside just long enough to begin dialogue which will hopefully lead to peace. Here in Israel, most of us at least, are just as eager to put an end once and for all to the ongoing violence, cruelties and crimes, for the sake of our children and their future. It is because of people like yourself that we too will muster the strength to look deep into ourselves, and see the terrible wrongs we’ve done to others. True reconciliation will take a long time, especially as the immediate solutions do not seem to encompass complete justice (no right-of-return to most palestinians, etc.), but god-willing, our children will look forward to going to college, instead of the army, and of treating their neighbors as cousins, instead of as enemies. In’shalla!

robert Says:
June 26th, 2007 at 10:10 am

Dear Hind,

can you elaborate on this?: “people die and suffer and the only one who benefit are the rich, famous and the people in power.
People like you and I need to take a stand to stop the violence. ”

שלום

Hind Kabawat Says:
June 27th, 2007 at 8:13 am

Robert my friend:

The underprivileged are those that pay the price of war. Communities suffer and the poor die.
Look at the vast number of refugees; look at the death tolls in Iraqو Israel, Palestine or Lebanon. Are the so called political elite included among these dead? ( one exeption Hady Nassrallah).
Robert, it is we who will pay the price of war, your children and mine. Peace is therefore essential.
The rich who own the weapons factories will not like this idea of peace. The weapons dealers and all those who benefit from the war will attempt to stifle any progress towards peace.
Let’s all fight for Peace in Middle East, Hind Kabawat هند قبوات

robert Says:
July 15th, 2007 at 9:41 am

hi again,

sorry for the late reply,..

i asked you to elaborate since this is an intersting issue, which i think is more relevant to the arab governers (i know you wouldnt like this distinction).
i guess it refers to democracy.

in israel i cant say that the rich are intersted in this fighting since this situation doesnt enable our industry (not weapon, but high-tech for example) to fullfill its potential.
actually, this is connected to what is written above by Michel Nahas, who explained the situation based on the interests of each side. what is Bashar’s interest?
remember Arafat? how much money he recieved from Europe, US, Arab world and Israel? where did it go? mainly to his wife pocket, who was out of Gaza.. and i am not speaking about other leaders who are less simple.

however, presonnaly i dont care how your system works (unlike others in israel who think that arab countries have to be democratic)

i just hope we will really want peace and good life for all of us.

all the best, PEACE,